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Michael Bay - Thoughts?


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#21 Opale

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 02:12 AM

Yeah, I meant go to fuck oreos.

Phew... I was afraid to do something wrong... :lol:

#22 helloemigoodbye

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 06:59 AM

I do consider a very good auteur as someone who acquired a lot of culture (history, literature, art history, psychology ect...) I think thats the whole thing that make difference of Tarantino and Bay vs Desplechin and Resnais. The first two knows the history of cinema, knows greatly the technique but they really don't have enlightening elements...greek mythology...Using my own auteur definition, bay and tarantino aren't cultivated enough to be auteurs...


I think that's an interesting viewpoint...I'd like to know what you have to say about George Lucas in that respect. :lol:

The way I see it, you take a film like Transformers or Transformers 2...the owners of the toy line almost most certainly has their stipulations about what can or can't be done with their franchise, the studio also probably had to guarantee a certain rating and that the film would not contain certain types of violence or sexuality because it might make McDoanld's or Pepsi uncomfortable. Due to the film's high visibilty, the studio probably also signed contracts with various companies to have their cars, soft drinks, clothing featured and displayed in the film as a form of advertising, etc. There is just such a laundry list of concessions that a director needs to make to operate in this part of the Hollywood arena, that I have difficulty believing Bay or any other director who chooses to make these films is an auteur no matter the definition set forth by Truffaut. These films are strictly work-for-hire and if you make enough hits you might be able to get away with a moderate amount of stylistic flourishes. Doesn't add up to a lot if you ask me!


That is true, but I can't think of any filmmaker apart from Bay who not only makes those concessions, but seems to celebrate them. Sure there's product placement in every (hollywood) film, but its always somewhat subtle, as if the filmmakers are even ashamed of it (and some have legitimate reason to be). But Bay gleefully shoves it in your face, and the effect is like being assaulted by Las Vegas and Times Square in a tag team wrestling match. I think it's less that he accepts and makes those concessions, and more that he approaches those concessions in his own unique style that qualifies him for auteur status.

P.S. I'm sorry about my ignorant evaluation of American Auteurism in the 21st century earlier in this thread. I was waaaay tired and for some reason I'd been thinking about Judd Apatow a lot and I really blanked on everything else.
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#23 Opale

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 09:07 AM

I think that's an interesting viewpoint...I'd like to know what you have to say about George Lucas in that respect. :lol:

Again, I was very young when I saw Lucas films but the last one I saw was THX 1135 and if I correctly remember it wasn't enlightening at all... :blink:

#24 littlefuzzy

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Posted 10 May 2009 - 08:43 AM

By some of the theories in here, Ewe Boll might be considered an auteur... :P
His films are pretty identifiably HIS.

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#25 masterofoneinchpunch

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Posted 11 May 2009 - 10:52 AM

Even if you have Hollywood and you play with billions of dollars each years, the world of cinema still belongs to French Europeans:
...


Yes with a world of billions all cinema comes down to French Europeans. This opinion of course ignores Béla Tarr, Tsai Ming-liang, Tarsem Singh, Zhang Yimou, Hou Hsiao-hsien, Wong Kar-wai, Johnnie To, and many many many others who are currently making challenging, sagacious cinema (my new Eastern European knowledge does need to be improved so I'm missing some obvious directors here).

Back to Bay -- egad. I'm still not a fan. Is he an auteur? I'm not sure. So much I've seen has been derived from other sources or is an overuse of crane movement like in Armageddon or shaky cam syndrome like the car chase in The Rock. He has to keep the camera movement, but it never seems fluid, it always seems forced.
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#26 hal0000

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Posted 11 May 2009 - 11:29 AM

ugh, the problem with defining the auteur theory by "good" directors is that the criteria for becoming an "auteur" is dependent on who ever's talking at the moment. My problem with the auteur theory is that people tend to reduce films to the "director's vision" even when it's not applicable. I think especially here (myself included), people are guilty of over-emphasizing the director's contribution at the detriment of others' contributions. Film is a collaborative medium, more so than most any other art form, and I feel as if people impose the auteur theory even when it's inappropriate.

Is Bay an auteur according to Truffaut's definition? Sure, but that doesn't mean I have to like his movies. Lately, I've tended to talk about a film in regards to what the film itself is doing, rather than the people who made it. I think we're treading murky waters when we try defining who's an "auteur" and who's not.

I am not necessarily saying that a director's vision (and an auteur) cannot exist. A good director keeps everything together and contributes immensely to the feel of the final result. But I'm getting so sick of director-this and director-that when it results in a general ignorance to everyone else involved. The auteur theory does hold true for a lot of films and a lot of filmmakers, but I feel as if people are judging films based on whether an auteur made them or not. There are plenty of bad films reeking of a particular director's influence. Likewise, there are plenty of great films that do not necessarily have an auteur, and it's grating on me when criteria are applied and they shouldn't.

#27 pigmode

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Posted 11 May 2009 - 11:29 AM

He is a director who through his work has provided some solid entertainment, and in all probability is not likely to rise much higher in the grand scheme of things. I see him as an entertainer more than anything else. Nothing wrong with that, as life would be an absolute bore were all directors auteur.
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#28 masterofoneinchpunch

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Posted 11 May 2009 - 11:38 AM

ugh, the problem with defining the auteur theory by "good" directors is that the criteria for becoming an "auteur" is dependent on who ever's talking at the moment. My problem with the auteur theory is that people tend to reduce films to the "director's vision" even when it's not applicable. I think especially here (myself included), people are guilty of over-emphasizing the director's contribution at the detriment of others' contributions. Film is a collaborative medium, more so than most any other art form, and I feel as if people impose the auteur theory even when it's inappropriate.

Is Bay an auteur according to Truffaut's definition? Sure, but that doesn't mean I have to like his movies. Lately, I've tended to talk about a film in regards to what the film itself is doing, rather than the people who made it. I think we're treading murky waters when we try defining who's an "auteur" and who's not.

I am not necessarily saying that a director's vision (and an auteur) cannot exist. A good director keeps everything together and contributes immensely to the feel of the final result. But I'm getting so sick of director-this and director-that when it results in a general ignorance to everyone else involved. The auteur theory does hold true for a lot of films and a lot of filmmakers, but I feel as if people are judging films based on whether an auteur made them or not. There are plenty of bad films reeking of a particular director's influence. Likewise, there are plenty of great films that do not necessarily have an auteur, and it's grating on me when criteria are applied and they shouldn't.


It is also important to note that the final vision for the auteur (what normally is mentioned as the director) does not always have to be a director. Certain producers like David Selznick or especially Irving Thalberg (just realized his birthday is the same as mine) also have to be mentioned. Sometimes an actor has so much power that his vision (Jackie Chan is a good example or later 20 works of Harold Lloyd) is the prevailing one even if he is not the director.

But yes the auteur theory can be overused and certain directors can have this statement associated with them even if it is wrong. But we have to take each film as a case-by-case basis :D
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#29 Ted

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 06:32 PM

After seeing the new Transformers film, I can say it is one of the best action movies I have ever seen. Damn the critics!
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#30 psufootball07

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 06:58 PM

As to Bay being an Auteur, that is a hideous overuse of the theory. To me the only great director who I would apply Auteur theory to in the US is Martin Scorsese and maybe Paul Thomas Anderson. One of my current favorite directors definitely qualifies for the Auteur theory, hailing from Canada, Guy Maddin.

Anyways saw this funny Michael Bay clip. He SUCKS.



#31 Duke Togo

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 11:15 PM

As to Bay being an Auteur, that is a hideous overuse of the theory. To me the only great director who I would apply Auteur theory to in the US is Martin Scorsese and maybe Paul Thomas Anderson. One of my current favorite directors definitely qualifies for the Auteur theory, hailing from Canada, Guy Maddin.

Anyways saw this funny Michael Bay clip. He SUCKS.

David Lynch! :D

#32 Ian

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 11:29 PM

In terms of F/X work, was it Michael Bay who pioneered the idea that as long as you have 1000's of blurry f/x's exploding in your face in every frame of your film and supplement the visuals with a cock-rock soundtrack the audience will leave the theater talking about how awesome the film was instead of noticing how shoddy the whole thing actually looks? I guess that's one of his contributions to cinema as before Bay "revolutionized" the action movie, you could usually follow the action on screen. Guess clear storytelling is for chumps.

I hope Transformers 2 gets a Criterion release. Maybe Criterion could film an interview with him in which he explains how Transformers 2 was really inspired by the golden age of MGM musicals and how dare people infer that Transformers 2 is racist. Michael Bay of course will be in bed masturbating to the poster of him looking like a purple M&M during the filming of the interview.

I know he has two spines in the collection but really...we all know he's a joke. It's annoying how on any Criterion related board, it seems that people enjoy talking more about Michael Bay than they do other Criterion directors. Something weird going on there, just sayin'.

#33 Duke Togo

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 11:48 PM

^
There is no doubt in my mind that he is garbage. I shutter when I think about how much dough his films make, and what kinds of thoughts that puts in the minds of studio execs. Bay's films seem to do more to insult our intelligence with each passing film, and I guess that leads to an overall pleased demographic and huge box-office returns. When you spend 200 million on a film, you could at least try to do the best job you can in the writing/dialogue department, but Bay just glazes over that to make way for the FX and goofy juvenile humor. At this rate I don't see us ever getting another T2, Die Hard, Predator, Aliens, etc. that will be held up for decades as the golden standard of Summer blockbusters, because this tool is apparently the best we can do right now. Now that Hollywood realizes you don't have to do anything but fart and explode things to break box office records, anything more challenging may start to look more and more risky.

Am I just being paranoid?

#34 Ian

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 12:09 AM

No. I think your probably right and these kinds of movies will permantly dumb down cinema and good "blockbuster" pictures will become even more rare and elusive creatures. It will be interesting to see what Cameron has in store for Avatar. Steven Spiellberg will never make another daring film again. The re-editing of Close Encounters of the Third Kind so that Dryfuss doesn't leave his family to go with the Aliens, pretty much says everything about his mental landscape these days. I don't get excited by a Steven Spielberg project anymore. Anyone remember when George Lucas was an interesting and relevent director and not a total tool?

It's the money man. It ruins art. Cut their salaries and the movies will get better. Artists need to be hungry to be creative. True for people in general. They'll try to better themselves in their professions for financial incentive, which is a good thing....but eventually you hit a level where your making more money than you need and that one destructive thought creeps into your skull "I'm rich, I don't have to put in all that blood, sweat and tears anymore...," and for most people the whole artistic proccess goes into the toilet.

#35 Lawrence

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 01:24 PM

No. I think your probably right and these kinds of movies will permantly dumb down cinema and good "blockbuster" pictures will become even more rare and elusive creatures. It will be interesting to see what Cameron has in store for Avatar. Steven Spiellberg will never make another daring film again. The re-editing of Close Encounters of the Third Kind so that Dryfuss doesn't leave his family to go with the Aliens, pretty much says everything about his mental landscape these days. I don't get excited by a Steven Spielberg project anymore. Anyone remember when George Lucas was an interesting and relevent director and not a total tool?

It's the money man. It ruins art. Cut their salaries and the movies will get better. Artists need to be hungry to be creative. True for people in general. They'll try to better themselves in their professions for financial incentive, which is a good thing....but eventually you hit a level where your making more money than you need and that one destructive thought creeps into your skull "I'm rich, I don't have to put in all that blood, sweat and tears anymore...," and for most people the whole artistic proccess goes into the toilet.


I'm with you on all of this. The biggest problem with modern films for me is the amount of writers per film. Someone writes the original script only for someone else who has no idea about the nuances of said script to come along and take out certain things and put in some cool sub Tarantino style chat. And before you know it, the cool little idea doesn't make any sense any more. I know Bay is style over content, and I could accept that if he was progressing but he's not. The films have plot holes the size of his ego, and just covering that up with a few explosions and whip pans isn't enough. God I really hope Cameron can come up with the goods with Avatar too.

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#36 Izo

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 07:29 PM

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#37 Duke Togo

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 07:41 PM

What a cheat. That crashing transformer animation is a little busy.

#38 sexy rancheros

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 10:41 PM

Only more proof that this man is an auteur.

This man should be put in jail for stealing...
...from his own work.
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