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Vincente Minnelli


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#1 Izo

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 05:39 PM

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I love An American in Paris. It's easily the best "revue" musical that was ever made in classic Hollywood, and it's in my top 100 films. And yet, I realized just today, I've never seen another Vincente Minnelli film. I've seen bits and pieces of several, but never an entire film. On my shelf for some time has been Gigi and Some Came Running, one a hit with audiences and one a critical darling. Minnelli's career is filled with much-adored films, though, from Meet Me in St. Louis to The Pirate and others, and yet I am completely unfamiliar with them. What are ideal starting points?

Roger Ebert Reviews:
The Band Wagon (Great Movie)
An American in Paris

Senses of Cinema:
Great Director
Vincente Minnelli: The Art of Entertainment
Some Came Running


TSPDT 1,000 Greatest Films: Meet Me in St. Louis (1944), An American in Paris (1951), The Bad and the Beautiful (1952), The Band Wagon (1953), Some Came Running (1958), Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (1962)

TSPDT 250 Quintessential Film Noir: Undercurrent (1946)

#2 Casey

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 09:52 PM

I love Meet Me in St. Louis, but I didn't care for Gigi or An American in Paris. That probably doesn't help you much, but St. Louis is worth it alone for hearing Judy Garland sing "Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas."

#3 clydefro

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 01:13 AM

Not to be difficult, but there are two n's in Vincente Minnelli's last name.

I've never seen a Minnelli picture that wasn't at least of interest, even if, like The Cobweb or Home from the Hill, it was out of his element and thus fraught with imperfections. The ones that people not yet familiar with him have to see are Some Came Running, imbued with a melancholic aspect that I love, The Band Wagon, with my favorite musical sequence in the Astaire-Charisse "Girl Hunt" number, and The Bad and the Beautiful, which is noteworthy for letting Kirk Douglas embody his prototypical son of a bitch and having Oscar winner Gloria Grahame gloriously pop up in support. Beyond that, I still need to see Meet Me in St. Louis, The Clock, and Gigi, and I was less taken with An American in Paris than most. Lust for Life, with Douglas as Van Gogh, is pretty good but ultimately still a fifties biopic burdened by those conventions. Father of the Bride is cute but fairly insubstantial.

#4 Izo

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 08:15 AM

Not to be difficult, but there are two n's in Vincente Minnelli's last name.

I've never seen a Minnelli picture that wasn't at least of interest, even if, like The Cobweb or Home from the Hill, it was out of his element and thus fraught with imperfections. The ones that people not yet familiar with him have to see are Some Came Running, imbued with a melancholic aspect that I love, The Band Wagon, with my favorite musical sequence in the Astaire-Charisse "Girl Hunt" number, and The Bad and the Beautiful, which is noteworthy for letting Kirk Douglas embody his prototypical son of a bitch and having Oscar winner Gloria Grahame gloriously pop up in support. Beyond that, I still need to see Meet Me in St. Louis, The Clock, and Gigi, and I was less taken with An American in Paris than most. Lust for Life, with Douglas as Van Gogh, is pretty good but ultimately still a fifties biopic burdened by those conventions. Father of the Bride is cute but fairly insubstantial.


My mistake. Can't seem to edit the title, though. Mod? I also forgot to do last name, first name on this and the Mamoulian thread.

What I'm reading about Minnelli is that his greatest contribution to film is his fantastic use of color. Do you agree with this, Clydefro?

#5 masterofoneinchpunch

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 11:01 AM

My mistake. Can't seem to edit the title, though. Mod? I also forgot to do last name, first name on this and the Mamoulian thread.

What I'm reading about Minnelli is that his greatest contribution to film is his fantastic use of color. Do you agree with this, Clydefro?


Fixed.

Ultimately I think the starting point Izo should be Meet Me in St. Louis, The Band Wagon and Gigi. Those by far are mentioned the most by critics and historians (and are my favorites of his films).

Here are his films on TSPDT:
156 Band Wagon, The Minnelli, Vincente 1953 US 112 Col
231 Meet Me in St. Louis Minnelli, Vincente 1944 US 113 Col
430 Some Came Running Minnelli, Vincente 1958 US 136 Col
606 American in Paris, An Minnelli, Vincente 1951 US 115 Col
580 Bad and the Beautiful, The Minnelli, Vincente 1952 US 118 BW
979 Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse Minnelli, Vincente 1962 US 153 Col

Hmm, I have not seen the last two on the list and Some Came Running (and it's ranked quite high), I'll have to think about watching that sometime.

When I rewatched Brigadoon this year I found that I didn't like it as much as I thought I had years back. Too many lulls, a bit silly, but still some fun scenes.
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#6 Izo

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 11:54 AM

Hmm, I have not seen the last two on the list and Some Came Running (and it's ranked quite high), I'll have to think about watching that sometime.


Scorsese and others consider Some Came Running to be among his very best films, and far better than the From Here to Eternity, the other Frank Sinatra-featured James Jones adaptation, and the one that is more recognized. I, for one, really don't like the movie at all - in fact I've said that Sinatra's and Montgomery Clift's performances are all it has going for it - which has made me keep putting off Some Came Running.

I got it in the same Sinatra box that has The Man With the Golden Arm.

How many Minnelli films are in the "Classic Movies from the Dream Factory" box sets? I haven't heard much about those sets, but I've been eyeballing them for some time.

#7 Ian

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 07:52 PM

I really disliked The Long, Long Trailer. Terrible movie. The gags run on too long and are just repeated over and over again with slight variations which become incredibly tiresome. (Look at Lucille Ball try to make dinner in a lopsided trailer! Look at Lucille Ball trying to make dinner in a trailer driving down a bumpy road!) The film had little substance and just felt like s 90 minute episode of I Love Lucy that needed to be chopped down to 30 minutes. The "Breezing along with the Breeze" musical number is a low point in the film. Terrible song.

Minnelli's Father of the Bride is a better film but I still don't see why it's held in such high regard. It's a tad too sentimental and Spencer Tracy has played the same uptight conservative in a million romantic comedies.

The Gene Kelly films are great but I don't know how much credit Minnelli should get for those. Gene Kelly had such a strong creative input in his movies that I consider him the auteur of his films, not Minnelli or Donen, etc.

Haven't seen much else by Minnelli...

#8 Izo

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 09:21 PM

I really disliked The Long, Long Trailer. Terrible movie. The gags run on too long and are just repeated over and over again with slight variations which become incredibly tiresome. (Look at Lucille Ball try to make dinner in a lopsided trailer! Look at Lucille Ball trying to make dinner in a trailer driving down a bumpy road!) The film had little substance and just felt like s 90 minute episode of I Love Lucy that needed to be chopped down to 30 minutes. The "Breezing along with the Breeze" musical number is a low point in the film. Terrible song.


I have seen that one, but it's been so long that I can't really offer any analysis other than I remember vaguely liking it.


Some Came Running *****/*****

Wow. This is just a hell of a film. I'll be watching it again very soon. Throughout the film, I kept thinking of Douglas Sirk's most famous films, like Written on the Wind and All That Heaven Allows, and I don't think they are too far apart, really. The primary difference here is that the writing is less overblown and (slightly) more believable. Minnelli's use of color and widescreen composition is really exceptional here, as are the performances of all the leads - even those who have very little to work with. In particular, Sinatra's and Shirley MacLaine's performances are really great. The climax alone may be the single most brilliant piece of cinema I've newly experienced this year.

Boy, I can't believe I let this waste away on my shelf for so long. Really exceptional film.

#9 clydefro

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Posted 22 May 2010 - 11:49 PM

What I'm reading about Minnelli is that his greatest contribution to film is his fantastic use of color. Do you agree with this, Clydefro?


Yes, that seems fair. I'd add also his musical staging and his use of color in CinemaScope. He was probably the master of bright, vivid and emotionally evocative color inside a wide Scope frame.

Spencer Tracy has played the same uptight conservative in a million romantic comedies.


I wouldn't agree. Aside from Father of the Bride and its sequel, Tracy almost never played this type of character. He rarely did comedies other than those with Hepburn and while you might say he was playing a similar character in Guess Who's Coming to Dinner that film isn't really a romantic comedy. I don't think The Actress isn't either, where he's also playing a father. Of course, there's Boys Town but that's a different sort of Father altogether.

#10 masterofoneinchpunch

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 04:05 PM

...Some Came Running *****/*****

Wow. This is just a hell of a film. I'll be watching it again very soon. Throughout the film, I kept thinking of Douglas Sirk's most famous films, like Written on the Wind and All That Heaven Allows, and I don't think they are too far apart, really. The primary difference here is that the writing is less overblown and (slightly) more believable. Minnelli's use of color and widescreen composition is really exceptional here, as are the performances of all the leads - even those who have very little to work with. In particular, Sinatra's and Shirley MacLaine's performances are really great. The climax alone may be the single most brilliant piece of cinema I've newly experienced this year.

Boy, I can't believe I let this waste away on my shelf for so long. Really exceptional film.


Izo your first picture on the first post no longer comes in.

Interesting new post from an old article from Cineaste, Fall 1995 titled Review of James Naremore’s THE FILMS OF VINCENTE MINNELLI by Jonathan Rosenbaum

It certainly is an exceptional film. While currently I would not give it a perfect rating, I certainly found it quite a worthwhile movie to watch. The similarities with Sirk is certainly easy to see. Don't forget the use of mirrors and reflection which mirror the use in several of Sirk's films. The color use certainly reminds me a bit of, though not quite as abudent as Sirk. Another connection I saw was a little of Dave Hirsh in Five Easy Pieces's Robert Eroica Dupea character.

The climax was bold, bodacious and looked great. The cinematography and kinentic motion of the carnival chase reminded me of Hitchcock, but with a beautiful widescope composition that I've seen in much of Minnelli's wide-screen work. I think we should show some snapshots of that scene here.

I thought the characters were very well developed (though I'm still not sure of the primary love interest Gwen French for Sinatra; also Sinatra keep hitting on her over and over to the point I got annoyed by it) and were quite multidimensional. It is nice to show the frailty of human nature and still have regard for your characters (with a few exceptions like Raymond Lanchak).

This may indeed be his best picture (or at least among them) though I really liked The Band Wagon, An American in Paris and Meet Me in St. Louis as well.
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#11 Izo

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 10:17 PM

A quartet of Minnelli pictures have been released on Warners Archive:

The Cobweb (1955)
Tea and Sympathy (1956)
The Relcutant Debutante (1958)
Two Weeks in Another Town (1962)

Anyone seen them?

Edit: Also available from the Archive:

The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
I Dood It

#12 clydefro

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 10:51 PM

A quartet of Minnelli pictures have been released on Warners Archive:

The Cobweb (1955)
Tea and Sympathy (1956)
The Relcutant Debutante (1958)
Two Weeks in Another Town (1962)

Anyone seen them?

Edit: Also available from the Archive:

The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
I Dood It


The Cobweb, yeah, and I've already gotten the Archive disc but haven't watched it yet. Anything with my dead mistress Gloria Grahame is pretty much a must-have. The Cobweb, though, is laughable. Credit me for coining the phrase "The Drapes of Wrath" in describing it because the film is basically centered around curtains at a mental health facility. Richard Widmark, another favorite of mine, is the head doctor who's married unhappily to Grahame and flirts with an affair with Lauren Bacall while his wife is out with Widmark's boss Charles Boyer. I can't stress enough how terrible (as in overblown, not unwatchable) the movie is and maybe I'll adapt the review I wrote a few years ago into something new to cover the Archive edition.

#13 Izo

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 09:24 PM

Gigi was a chore to get through for me. The film inexplicably won 9 (!) Oscars, including Best Picture and Best Director, but to me it feels like such an uninspired rehash of Lerner and Loewe's My Fair Lady* that I couldn't help but compare it to that vastly superior film. And My Fair Lady is superior in virtually every way - with the possible exception of cinematography and direction, because Gigi is an absolute feast for the eyes. The leads are absolutely forgettable in Gigi, a pale comparison to the magnificent Rex Harrison and Audrey Hepburn, even if her singing voice was overdubbed. Speaking of which, the dubbing in Gigi was pretty atrocious, particularly during the musical numbers, something you never notice in My Fair Lady, much of which is due to Rex Harrison's insistence on singing live during that film. Maurice Chevalier is nigh unbearable. The musical numbers, too, seem like talk-sung ripoffs of My Fair Lady's better tunes. The lone standout is the title tune, sung with longing and bravado by an otherwise milquetoast Louis Jourdan.

So I'm baffled by the film's reception. But, if one were to see Gigi without any prior knowledge of Lerner and Loewe or My Fair Lady at all, it's very likely that they would enjoy it much, much more than I did. By no means do I consider it a bad film, just an uninspired one. If nothing else, the film is worth seeing just to look at, because Minnelli amazes me more with every film I see with his exuberant visual style and use of color and widescreen. I'm not the biggest Lerner and Loewe fan by a long stretch, but they made one bonafide masterpiece, and Gigi ain't it.


*The film adaptation of My Fair Lady was released in 1964, but the stage production was first produced in 1956, two years before Gigi was released.

#14 clydefro

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 09:18 PM

^ You don't mention Leslie Caron even once by name, and you also left her out of your thoughts on An American in Paris. Was that on purpose? She was kind of in that Audrey Hepburn mold before even Hepburn was. (I've still not seen Gigi.)

#15 masterofoneinchpunch

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Posted 08 September 2015 - 04:59 PM

I really disliked The Long, Long Trailer. Terrible movie. The gags run on too long and are just repeated over and over again with slight variations which become incredibly tiresome. (Look at Lucille Ball try to make dinner in a lopsided trailer! Look at Lucille Ball trying to make dinner in a trailer driving down a bumpy road!) The film had little substance and just felt like s 90 minute episode of I Love Lucy that needed to be chopped down to 30 minutes. The "Breezing along with the Breeze" musical number is a low point in the film. Terrible song.
...

 

While I would not say it is a good film, I would not say it is terrible either.  Minnelli's direction is just too good to give this that hyperbole.  This is the type of "Murphy's Law" or what I call "life in Hell" style of movie like The Money Pit (1986) or the best style of this subgenre would be Scorsese's After Hours. You expect an escalation of problems that will not stop and gradually gets worse until the ending.

 

Ball is essentially playing a very similar character as her then going TV show I Love Lucy.  How much you like that TV show might have to do with how much you like this movie.  She certainly had more range that that.  Just look at her film noirs like The Dark Corner or past comedies like The Fuller Brush Girl to see she could do more.

 

Really the biggest problem is how much Desi Arnaz's character gives into Lucy's character.  You just know it is a disaster waiting to happen.  This becomes overly predictable.   Of course you know once they get that extremely long trailer you know things are not going to go well.  But  I think some of the gags are fine enough.  In the vein of, "are you kidding me" and "you really should not do that." 

 

Great movie reference that is not even on IMDB: if you look at the marquee of the theater you will see The Band Wagon playing (another movie by Minnelli that same year.)
 


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