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#41 Izo

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 04:16 PM

Well, basically it comes down to this: where is it located?

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#42 mikesncc1701

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 07:48 PM

Well, basically it comes down to this: where is it located?

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#43 Izo

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 08:26 PM

Spoiler



Edit: It's really hilarious to me how every Christopher Nolan-related thread on any forum anywhere devolves into this kind of unsightly spoiler-fest.

#44 mikesncc1701

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 09:15 PM

Spoiler



Edit: It's really hilarious to me how every Christopher Nolan-related thread on any forum anywhere devolves into this kind of unsightly spoiler-fest.


Spoiler
.

And yeah, I've noticed that. Especially when Inception came out. It's a good thing though. I'd hate to spoil anything for anyone.

#45 Izo

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 09:21 PM

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I've come to really like how Christopher Nolan re-uses his actors in each subsequent film.

#46 mikesncc1701

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 10:39 PM

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I've come to really like how Christopher Nolan re-uses his actors in each subsequent film.


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#47 masterofoneinchpunch

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 10:08 AM

Of course you do realize that Ra's Al Ghul is actually immortal.

I'll have some thoughts on the film later. Currently very interested in Sexy's comments. I'm sure my view is going to be between his and you two (aka I liked the film, but it will not be top 10 of the year).

The spoiler tag has just removed what I f'n wrote about getting back to Gotham. Screw that. Anyways its a pretty big plot hole.
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#48 masterofoneinchpunch

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 05:56 PM

Jim Emerson's complaint which I have read over and over in his writings on Nolan including the latest column The Dark Knight Rises: A hero ain't nothin' but a knuckle sandwich (There are some good comments and much back and forth on the film in that column)

But here it is:
"I just find myself looking at shot after shot in which there's only one thing at a time to look at, and I find that gets tedious. For me, anyway."

Has anyone here noticed this or annoyed by this in Nolan's direction? I've never thought of this. The argument sounds a bit petty and only it is only one aspect of cinema dealing with composition. Is this true though? This is the type of argument I would have to rewatch his older films to see if I notice that?

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#49 Duke Togo

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 08:19 PM

^
I've never noticed that, but thinking over what I remember of The Dark Knight I can almost see what he's on about. I hope it's an exaggeration though. It never bothered me before and I would rather not be distracted over such a thing.

#50 hal0000

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 10:44 PM

"I just find myself looking at shot after shot in which there's only one thing at a time to look at, and I find that gets tedious. For me, anyway."


Emerson oversells his point on The Dark Knight, but I agree with him completely. Nolan has a pretty bland and unmemorable style of composition; it feels more like watching a television show than a well composed film. I find his action sequences confusing and lacking in a consistent understanding of screen direction and space*. The overuse of over-the-shoulder/SRS coupled with his tedious and unnecessary exposition leave me visually bored any time I see one of his movies. I hear TDKR is slightly better, visually, though.

A memorable shot in a Nolan movie is pretty rare, to the point that it feels more like luck. It's like he just plops down the camera anywhere and hopes for the best. I somehow doubt he does much storyboarding or gives it much attention; maybe I'm wrong.

Emerson posted this ages ago, to showcase that a lot of directors these days don't give much credence to The Shot, instead carelessly snatching images and stringing them together. That post was about the time of Inglourious Basterds, which has a much more competent visual style and screen sense. I'm not a Tarantino worshipper, but unlike a lot of directors these days, he knows how to make eye candy; Nolan not so much, I think.

Edit RE master: I agree it's a bit petty (to the extent Emerson was analyzing TDK), but Nolan's sloppy film grammar is indicative of a degrading (or perhaps evolving?) cinematic language. I'm not a grammar Nazi, but I do appreciate good grammar and spelling; good discourse is akin to fine spices.



*see Mission Impossible 3, then see Ghost Protocol for the difference. JJ Abrams is like Nolan, with a mediocre sense of composition and screen direction, whereas Brad Bird seems, to me at least, to have a much better idea of how to shoot an action scene.

#51 mikesncc1701

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 02:15 AM

Some of Emerson's "complaints"
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#52 Izo

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 07:45 AM

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#53 sexy rancheros

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 11:37 PM

I didn't even think of the getting back to Gotham thing, but I don't know if I necessarily call that a hole. I'd just call it an ellipsis. Then again by that point of the movie, I just wanted it to end.

I think I pretty much agree with everything Emerson wrote except his complaints about story specifics and that this film is an improvement.

I rewatched Batman Begins a few days and I was surprised at how much I enjoyed it because based on my memory, I revisited it before within the last few years and didn't much care for it. I think The Dark Knight Rises made me appreciate it more because the things that bugged me about Rises are pretty much entirely absent from Begins.

The pacing in Rises is kind of godawful. It feels too long and too short at the sametime. Too long because all the bullshit that they stuck in it. Too short because the little time they spend with all the bullshit in it. I think hal's point of how Nolan seems to accidentally come across "good" shots is especially on point in this because every shot in this seems to be on a short time limit, even when it's one of the rare possibly "good" ones. It's almost as if it was in order to let the audience not think about how seemingly nonsensical and unnecessary some of the plot developments are with its nonstop pace. While the tacking real world issues into the film don't come across as retardedly as the whole invasion of privacy Patriot Act shit from The Dark Knight, it's still pretty stupid. That Nolan quote in the Emerson piece about how the film is not political is pretty good just because it satisfies my image of Nolan a little too well. Tone is another problem with Nolan's latest work. There's just a sameness to everything, which, of course, infects the acting. I think a reason why Ledger in The Dark Knight and Cotillard, for me at least, in Inception stick out in their respective films is because everybody else is at this bland, serious register that they all sort of blend together. I honestly don't know what differentiates JGL's character from Tom Hardy's in Inception other than accent. And Rises, there's no standout performance as well as no editing, cinematography, and pretty much any other aspect of filmmaking to latch onto. All the film is is story and it's not even good at that. A hour after seeing it, I honestly felt like I didn't even see a movie. Then days go by and I think about story beats in it and how stupid and illogical most of it is. But I feel like if I try to find all the holes and try to figure out the point of some of the things that happen in this movie, I'll probably end up like one of those Indian dudes in that basement in Inception.
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#54 mikesncc1701

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 02:24 AM

I didn't even think of the getting back to Gotham thing, but I don't know if I necessarily call that a hole. I'd just call it an ellipsis. Then again by that point of the movie, I just wanted it to end.

I think I pretty much agree with everything Emerson wrote except his complaints about story specifics and that this film is an improvement.

I rewatched Batman Begins a few days and I was surprised at how much I enjoyed it because based on my memory, I revisited it before within the last few years and didn't much care for it. I think The Dark Knight Rises made me appreciate it more because the things that bugged me about Rises are pretty much entirely absent from Begins.

The pacing in Rises is kind of godawful. It feels too long and too short at the sametime. Too long because all the bullshit that they stuck in it. Too short because the little time they spend with all the bullshit in it. I think hal's point of how Nolan seems to accidentally come across "good" shots is especially on point in this because every shot in this seems to be on a short time limit, even when it's one of the rare possibly "good" ones. It's almost as if it was in order to let the audience not think about how seemingly nonsensical and unnecessary some of the plot developments are with its nonstop pace. While the tacking real world issues into the film don't come across as retardedly as the whole invasion of privacy Patriot Act shit from The Dark Knight, it's still pretty stupid. That Nolan quote in the Emerson piece about how the film is not political is pretty good just because it satisfies my image of Nolan a little too well. Tone is another problem with Nolan's latest work. There's just a sameness to everything, which, of course, infects the acting. I think a reason why Ledger in The Dark Knight and Cotillard, for me at least, in Inception stick out in their respective films is because everybody else is at this bland, serious register that they all sort of blend together. I honestly don't know what differentiates JGL's character from Tom Hardy's in Inception other than accent. And Rises, there's no standout performance as well as no editing, cinematography, and pretty much any other aspect of filmmaking to latch onto. All the film is is story and it's not even good at that. A hour after seeing it, I honestly felt like I didn't even see a movie. Then days go by and I think about story beats in it and how stupid and illogical most of it is. But I feel like if I try to find all the holes and try to figure out the point of some of the things that happen in this movie, I'll probably end up like one of those Indian dudes in that basement in Inception.

Wow. It almost seems like your trying to be negative just for the hell of it. I may agree with the funny statement about Nolan saying there's nothing "political" about the film because there's no way The Dark Knight and Rises reflect so much about the current period that it's just a coincidence. What I love about Nolan's political subtexts, is that there is no bias. It's merely addressed. For instance one of our good guys in The Dark Knight is as you say, "willing to invade privacy for the greater good" while another good guy disagrees with the entire thought of it. Same as the 99% subject in Rises, while Bane, especially his line during the
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Nolan's way of showing us politics with no slant is nothing short of an achievement in Hollywood where everything is so radical, no matter the leaning. As far as performances go, Bale may come off as typical after the first two films, but I have to say, much to popular disagreement, that Hardy excels Ledger as the villain. Don't get me wrong, Ledger was terrific, but Hardy throws an intelligent, methodical, and downright brutal performance that's it's hard to ignore his presence. Even then by the end of the film during the
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Even Hathaway was great in her role as Selina Kyle. She exerts a very serious, yet playful tone that never falls into campy territory and is very faithful to how she is represented in the comics. JGL on the other hand, is never really allowed the time to fully envelope himself in his role. He's there and does a great job with what he's given but that's about it. What I do love however is that even though there's so many characters presented in the film, every one of them serves a purpose...except for Matthew Modine. His character could have been eliminated and nothing lost. I'm still wondering why he was there to begin with. I thought the pacing was perfect and wouldn't have minded it being longer. Hell a 3 1/2 hour version would be welcome with more expositional growth allowed. Both times I saw it felt way shorter than it should have for a film of it's length. I guess I was just fully grabbed by it that I never cared how long it had been on. I think Rises is top notch in pretty much every category that I'm even thinking of seeing it a third time. It may not be a masterpiece but any praise it gets is well deserved in my opinion.

#55 masterofoneinchpunch

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 04:48 PM

I didn't even think of the getting back to Gotham thing, but I don't know if I necessarily call that a hole. I'd just call it an ellipsis. Then again by that point of the movie, I just wanted it to end.
...


An ellipse is technically a plot hole :). The problem with this particular ellipse is that it really seems lazy or in fact they could not think of a way to get him back logically. It's almost funny in the way the old time serials would have the hero in danger at the end of an episode only to be safe in the new episode with some perfunctory explanation on how the hero got back. Except this film was missing even that perfunctory explanation.

I did enjoy the film, I'll explain more on the positives (and more negatives) in a later post.

some spoilers on both Insomnia films:

I watched Insomnia this weekend so I could finish off the Nolan oeuvre. I was looking at first for "shot after shot of one thing ..." but after awhile of this I paid more attention to the story and the similarities and differences between the original and the acting styles of those involved. Pacino always seems to dominate when he is on screen. The cinematography is good, and the location shooting really helps. More thought and effort could be made on composition, but it looked fine and nothing overly simplistic.

The biggest telling factor I feel for the film is where Nolan deviates the most from the original -- the ending (which I did not care as much for as the original). When a director chooses to do a remake the most obvious factors for personal themes are what they choose to do differently with the story. I think the new ending loses a bit of strength for the film since this one ends nice and tidy which does not have the more morally ambiguous Jonas Engström live on, but states some interesting parallels with his other films, especially with the Batman series. Here the "do the right thing" ending trumps the pragmatism stated earlier in the film. This is at odds with the somewhat convoluted The Dark Knight theme of "do the right thing but only after you get rid of the Joker". But maybe even back then he was conscious of mixing messages throughout his movies. Or maybe he has been grasping with the idea of pragmatism versus a idealistic view? Or maybe he just wanted an ending?

But ultimately while enjoying the film my experience was tapered by the original.
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#56 masterofoneinchpunch

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 12:17 PM

I wasn't particularly thrilled with Hathaway as Selina Kyle. I just did not believe her as a badass (though as a sarcastic one she certainly is believable). Nor was I thrilled with the amount of fighting scenes where guys with guns just happen to be too close to her so she can spin with a roundhouse or fist to disarm the criminal. Any decent criminal knows to keep a slightly bigger distance when pining someone down (actually what is the point of moving toward them if you are not going to handcuff them -- just thinking). In a weird way I actually prefer Catwoman in Batman Returns which had an origin story for her (not saying an origin story is needed for this film, just that I liked her mental character more than the sarcastic one here), plus the dance was better in that film as well.

The Modesto Bee had a small review where it stated that the film suffered when Catwoman was not on the screen (I'm not kidding about this).

Does Nolan have a weakness directing female characters?

I really liked Tom Hardy's Bane though (regardless of what Ebert and Emerson state). At first it was a little hard to understand him (and Batman as well), but Hardy is a physical enough actor to make his performance work for me. He comes off quite believable (being in Warrior certainly helped him with his fight scenes here). Though I wasn't overly happy with his ending in the movie. Mike if you have not seen Bronson (and Warrior) I would suggest you do to see another great Hardy performance, I'm close to agreement with you about his character.

I feel the Matthew Modine character could have been completely removed. Though his ending was satisfactory. :)
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1-16, 18, 19, 20, 21(2nd), 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51(1st & 2nd), 52, 52, 53, 53, 55, 56, 57, 58, 61, 62, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86. 87, 88, 90, 91, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 105, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 121, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 143, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151(1st), 157, 158, 159, 160, 161, 164, 165, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 175, 177, 180, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 187, 188, 189, 190, 193, 194, 195, 196, 197, 198, 199, 201, 202, 204, 205, 206, 208, 209, 210, 211, 212, 213, 214, 216, 217, 218, 219, 220, 221, 222, 224, 226, 227, 231, 232, 233, 234, 235, 237, 239, 239, 240, 241, 242, 243, 244, 245, 246, 247, 248, 249, 250, 251, 252, 253, 254, 255, 256, 260, 263, 266, 267, 268, 271, 273, 274, 275, 276, 277, 280, 281, 282, 283, 284, 285, 286, 288, 289, 290, 291, 292, 293, 294, 297, 298, 300(2D), 301, 302, 304, 305, 306, 308, 309, 310, 311, 312, 313, 314, 315, 316, 317, 318, 319, 320, 321, 322, 323, 324, 325, 326, 327, 328, 329, 330, 331, 332, 335, 336, 338, 339, 340, 341, 342, 343, 344, 345, 346, 347, 348, 349, 351, 352, 353, 354, 357, 358, 359, 362, 363, 364, 365, 366, 367, 368, 369, 370, 371, 372, 373, 374, 375, 376, 378, 379, 380, 383, 385, 386, 387, 388, 391, 392, 393, 394, 395, 396, 397, 398, 399, 402, 404, 405, 408, 409, 410, 412, 413, 414, 415, 416, 417, 418, 419, 420, 421, 422, 424, 425, 427, 428, 429, 430, 431, 432, 433, 434, 435, 437, 439, 441, 445, 446, 447, 448, 451, 453, 455, 456, 457, 459, 460, 461, 462, 465, 470, 475, 476, 478, 481, 482, 487, 490, 497, 498, 499, 500, 501, 503, 505, 512, 524, 525, 526, 528, 529, 530, 531, 539, 540, 543, 556, 565, 572, 578, 579, 580, 586, 596, 650, 664, 677

Previous Editions: 2,
Eclipse: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 12, 13, 15, 16, 23, 26, 33

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#57 Lawrence

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 04:22 PM

Well I finally saw TDKR tonight, and have read through the various spoiler filled comments in this thread. First up I just want to say that I went into this film knowing nothing, I'd seen a few pictures but I hadn't read anything or seen any trailers. Secondly I really enjoyed it, for a long film it flew by. Nice to see some familiar faces such as Modine fleshing out smaller roles. I like Nolan, I don't think he's one of the greatest living directors or anything, I wouldn't put him up there with Paul Thomas Anderson for instance, but he's a decent enough director that makes films that I want to see at the cinema and then buy and watch at home.

Spoiler


I like that Nolan has managed to slow down what audiences expect from those big summer blockbusters flicks too. I quite like his pacing, and while his editing style for action sequences can be confusing, it's only in keeping with how these sort of films are nowadays. I have the same problem with Casino Royale for instance. Anyway…

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#58 Izo

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 05:33 PM

A lot of people have complained about it, but I found it refreshing that Batman was so rarely shown in the film. Nolan subverts expectations quite a bit in these films with things like that.

#59 mikesncc1701

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 05:43 PM

Oh yeah, my roommate showed me Bronson last year. I loved it and Hardy was a freakin' best in it. I have not seen Warrior but I hear it's great, even better than The Fighter (which I personally loved) from a few people. I'm in complete agreeance with you on Modine master. He provided nothing substantial and there was no need to have hime there. But, I will counter-argue that since Nolan's films are integrated in as much reality as possible (given the elements provided), it's safe to say that he was put there to actually serve no purpose. There are people everywhere that are just there and don't provide anything or serve a purpose. I don't know. Either way I still find this to be a perfect film for theater going. It has pretty much everything a good blockbuster needs. I can safely say this will get a ton of replay over the years when it hits blu. So am I the only who absolutely loved Zimmer's score for this? He has some great fast paced, tension filled pieces coupled with moments of quieter, more ambient pieces. And I loved the percussion and chants that signified the presence of Bane. Great stuff!



#60 sexy rancheros

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 09:25 PM

^I think this is the best thing to come out of the movie.


I don't have a problem with any of the things that Lawrence highlighted in his chunk of spoiler text except for the last one. I also feel like the movie is kind of the perfect candidate for trying to find holes because everything is presented in such a sullen, serious way, and every twist and turn seems almost delibrately designed to make you marvel at clever it is. And then there's the whole trying to strip away elements from the comics to make it more "realistic" or whatever you want to call it. Bane doesn't use venom. Those aren't cat ears on Catwoman's heads. That's just how her goggles rest on her head and don't call her Catwoman because that'd be stupid and unrealistic despite most things that transpire in this movie. And then there's the whole let's tack some shit politically relevant into the movie that's not there on accident and not do anything with it just because. Honestly, why is that stuff there? I'd be more content if they had some actual agenda to go along with it, even if it would still feel totally inappropiate, but as it is, it just seems like the filmmakers trying to be ballsy in the most asinine way imaginable.

My problem with The Dark Knight Rises, outside of its bland direction, is mainly its inability to let things be simple and instead try complicate shit to the point of it making incomprehensible. I want to compare and contrast the "evil" plan of Batman Begins to the one in Rises just because I actually enjoy that movie. The story might be more simple than Rises, but it actually makes sense.

Begins:
Spoiler


Rises:
Spoiler


Also,
Spoiler

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