[Lawrence]

clydefro, on Mar 12 2009, 06:57 AM, said:

After Diva going to Lionsgate there's no guarantee for Rialto titles. However, I'd really like to see both those British films on Criterion. I recorded a recent TCM showing of Brighton Rock but haven't watched it yet. It Always Rains on Sunday I watched when the Rialto print was screening. Not really exceptional and not really a noir, but still pretty good and it picks up in the second half. I like director Robert Hamer's films quite a bit. He's somewhat of a forgotten man among British filmmakers of the '40s and '50s.

I rate It Always Rains on Sunday quite highly. It's quite different for a typical Ealing film, do people think of this as a noir then Clyde?

[clydefro]

Lawrence, on Mar 12 2009, 12:36 PM, said:

I rate It Always Rains on Sunday quite highly. It's quite different for a typical Ealing film, do people think of this as a noir then Clyde?

Probably because of noir's buzzword status there were a lot of write-ups and promotional materials that hinted at it as such when the film played here last year. It's not that I didn't like it at all, and I watched another Hamer film not too long ago that I really enjoyed called The Scapegoat, but my expectations of it as a noir were incorrect. The first half or so is a particular slow burn before the far more moody sequences where Tommy Swann is on the loose.

[Lawrence]

clydefro, on Mar 12 2009, 07:05 PM, said:

Probably because of noir's buzzword status there were a lot of write-ups and promotional materials that hinted at it as such when the film played here last year. It's not that I didn't like it at all, and I watched another Hamer film not too long ago that I really enjoyed called The Scapegoat, but my expectations of it as a noir were incorrect. The first half or so is a particular slow burn before the far more moody sequences where Tommy Swann is on the loose.

Ah I see. There are some noirish touches during those later scenes, camera angles, wet streets etc. What British films would you consider noir by the way, I take it The Third Man and Brighton Rock would be in there but I'd love to know of any more.

[clydefro]

Without complicating definitions of film noir and all that, The Third Man definitely and Night and the City. Having elements of noir and thus noirish, The Small Back Room, The October Man, It Always Rains on Sunday could all fit here. I get a noir vibe from The Fallen Idol. The Good Die Young is another one I like. I haven't seen Brighton Rock, but I'd expect it and others like Odd Man Out to be in the same boat.

There's really a lot I haven't seen or probably even heard of that might also qualify. My knowledge of British film is embarrassingly lacking, something I'm especially reminded of now while trying to write about a couple of new BFI discs for Saturday Night and Sunday Morning and The Loneliness of the Long Distance Runner.

[Lawrence]

clydefro, on Mar 12 2009, 07:36 PM, said:

Without complicating definitions of film noir and all that, The Third Man definitely and Night and the City. Having elements of noir and thus noirish, The Small Back Room, The October Man, It Always Rains on Sunday could all fit here. I get a noir vibe from The Fallen Idol. The Good Die Young is another one I like. I haven't seen Brighton Rock, but I'd expect it and others like Odd Man Out to be in the same boat.

There's really a lot I haven't seen or probably even heard of that might also qualify. My knowledge of British is embarrassingly lacking, something I'm especially reminded of now while trying to write about a couple of new BFI discs for Saturday Night and Sunday Morning and The Loneliness of the Long Distance Runner.

I know we're drifting massively off topic here, but I'm going to be really interested to read what you think of those two BFI releases. They're two of my favourite British sixties films. I can't believe I forgot Night and the City, I think of it as being American that could be why. One last question, do noir films always have to be set in a city? We can shift all of this over into a noir thread later.

[clydefro]

Lawrence, on Mar 12 2009, 03:03 PM, said:

I know we're drifting massively off topic here, but I'm going to be really interested to read what you think of those two BFI releases. They're two of my favourite British sixties films. I can't believe I forgot Night and the City, I think of it as being American that could be why. One last question, do noir films always have to be set in a city? We can shift all of this over into a noir thread later.

I was originally just going to review Loneliness because I'm particularly fond of it, but, like an idiot, I said why not do both. It's nerve-wracking to try and write about very well known British films for a British website when you're not culturally enmeshed in that history.

With regards to noir being set in a city, I don't personally think there's a hard and fast rule for that. It's more of a byproduct of city life having a built-in angst and the stress and opportunities for crime, etc. There are a few I can think of right away that play with that idea like On Dangerous Ground, half of which is set in an unnamed city and the other half is in a snowy upstate rural area. Several, perhaps untraditional, film noir titles have few scenes at all in the city. Ace in the Hole has its New Mexico caves. The Night of the Hunter uses very atmospheric locales and a West Virginia setting. Brute Force is entirely in a prison. There are also the numerous Mexican-set noirs which utilize the heat as a means for tension.

[Lawrence]

clydefro, on Mar 12 2009, 08:31 PM, said:

I was originally just going to review Loneliness because I'm particularly fond of it, but, like an idiot, I said why not do both. It's nerve-wracking to try and write about very well known British films for a British website when you're not culturally enmeshed in that history.

With regards to noir being set in a city, I don't personally think there's a hard and fast rule for that. It's more of a byproduct of city life having a built-in angst and the stress and opportunities for crime, etc. There are a few I can think of right away that play with that idea like On Dangerous Ground, half of which is set in an unnamed city and the other half is in a snowy upstate rural area. Several, perhaps untraditional, film noir titles have few scenes at all in the city. Ace in the Hole has its New Mexico caves. The Night of the Hunter uses very atmospheric locales and a West Virginia setting. Brute Force is entirely in a prison. There are also the numerous Mexican-set noirs which utilize the heat as a means for tension.

I only asked since one of the extras on The Naked City states that noirs are always city based. I was a little surprised since Nightmare Alley is surely a noir but not at all set in a city or town for that matter. I'm glad you cleared that up though.
As for the review I'm sure you'll do fine, have you seen Saturday Night Sunday Morning before?

[clydefro]

Last night was my first time viewing Saturday Night. I had meant to see it earlier, but never got around to it until now that I'm trying to write the review. There's a commentary so I'll end up watching it again in the next couple of days.

[cfkane]

Clyde & Lawrence, at the risk of continuing to bring this even further off topic, I wonder what other films besides This Sporting Life, Saturday Night and Sunday Morning and Look Back In Anger, do you think would qualify as part of the so-called mid-60's "Angry young man" film form that I believe these films were considered part of? I have seen TSL, and have Saturday night on my TIVO, but have not seen Look Back In Anger. what do you guys think is the best of the genre?

Questions open to anyone else of course.

[clydefro]

The two films starring Tom Courtenay - Billy Liar and The Loneliness of the Long Distance Runner - are my favorites. He has a really unique and endearing presence in those pictures that rings true for me.

[cfkane]

clydefro, on Mar 12 2009, 07:26 PM, said:

The two films starring Tom Courtenay - Billy Liar and The Loneliness of the Long Distance Runner - are my favorites. He has a really unique and endearing presence in those pictures that rings true for me.

Thanks Clyde. I have seen Billy Liar, but forgot about that one, good film. Where would I find your reviews of Loneliness and Saturday Night, your filmjournal site? Look forward to reading them.

[clydefro]

cfkane, on Mar 12 2009, 07:53 PM, said:

Thanks Clyde. I have seen Billy Liar, but forgot about that one, good film. Where would I find your reviews of Loneliness and Saturday Night, your filmjournal site? Look forward to reading them.

They'll be at DVD Times. The BFI Blu-ray editions of the films are released on March 23rd so I should probably have the reviews ready some time next week.

[clydefro]

I spun this off into its own thread. Watched The Loneliness of the Long Distance Runner again tonight for review and my goodness is this a great film. I'm angry at myself for leaving it off my 1960s list. So much of the pain and hope of youth is captured in Courtenay's performance. That grin as he pulls up short at the end absolutely kills me. It makes me cackle through tears. I think if I ever met Tom Courtenay I'd have to really pull myself together to not lose it. This and Billy Liar are absurdly special, timeless movies that I relate to immensely.

[Lawrence]

clydefro, on Mar 18 2009, 05:00 AM, said:

I spun this off into its own thread. Watched The Loneliness of the Long Distance Runner again tonight for review and my goodness is this a great film. I'm angry at myself for leaving it off my 1960s list. So much of the pain and hope of youth is captured in Courtenay's performance. That grin as he pulls up short at the end absolutely kills me. It makes me cackle through tears. I think if I ever met Tom Courtenay I'd have to really pull myself together to not lose it. This and Billy Liar are absurdly special, timeless movies that I relate to immensely.

It's a corker and no mistake. Courtenay never seemed to make the most of his career in the way his contemporaries did, things seemed to have slipped for him after Doctor Zhivago. Last Orders (2001) is well worth seeing by the way for fans of British drama.
As a side note I used to use Jerusalem (sampled from this film) as my into when DJing, and I ran a club that I christened Saturday Night, Sunday Morning.

[clydefro]

Here's that review of The Loneliness of the Long Distance Runner I wrote, which looks especially lengthy without any screen captures and required Michael Brooke's usual supplementing via comment.

[Lawrence]

clydefro, on Mar 20 2009, 10:14 PM, said:

Here's that review of The Loneliness of the Long Distance Runner I wrote, which looks especially lengthy without any screen captures and required Michael Brooke's usual supplementing via comment.

As usual Cylde you always seem to get it right when writing reviews (or at least the few of yours that I have read). The comparison between Billy Fisher and Colin Smith is a interesting one to make, it's not something I'd ever really considered before - although now it seems quite obvious. I'd forgotten that Michael Redgrave was in The Loneliness of the Long Distance Runner too, he's by far one of the best British character actors of his time, sad that he seems to be forgotten now.
I thought Momma Don't Allow was the best of the three films in the first Free Cinema movement program. It captures British youth just before the influx of Rock 'N' Roll, when Jazz was still the hipsters choice. I absolutely adore the BFI Free Cinema Box that was released a few years back, and would recommend it to anyone who has an interest in Britain (well England) from the 50's, new wave British cinema or documentary films. It's a gem.

[clydefro]

^ Thanks. I'd agree on Redgrave from what I've seen of him. It's interesting that here he was being directed by the man who married his daughter the same year the film was released. The commentator on this disc speculates that that was the likely reason Redgrave agreed to do the film.

I haven't seen the other two of the original Free Cinema shorts, but "Momma Don't Allow" was definitely well-scored. Before seeing it, I watched Karel Reisz's We Are the Lambeth Boys, which is on the Saturday Night release, and I preferred that approach to a similar subject. Throughout both, though, I kept thinking how the kids I was watching were probably grandparents now.

[Lawrence]

clydefro, on Mar 21 2009, 02:48 AM, said:

^ Thanks. I'd agree on Redgrave from what I've seen of him. It's interesting that here he was being directed by the man who married his daughter the same year the film was released. The commentator on this disc speculates that that was the likely reason Redgrave agreed to do the film.

I haven't seen the other two of the original Free Cinema shorts, but "Momma Don't Allow" was definitely well-scored. Before seeing it, I watched Karel Reisz's We Are the Lambeth Boys, which is on the Saturday Night release, and I preferred that approach to a similar subject. Throughout both, though, I kept thinking how the kids I was watching were probably grandparents now.

We Are the Lambeth Boys is the best of all the Free Cinema films. That's the one I'll go back to over and over I'm certain (there are others too). With old documentaries I always think about what has happened to the people being filmed. I just kept hoping to myself that some of their attitudes wouldn't be passed down to their children.
That's a great extra to have on Saturday Night, Sunday Morning (unless you already own it). I'll be picking up both of these in the near future.
Oh and by the way the first Free Cinema program consisted of two shorts (O Dreamland & Momma Don't Allow) and one feature (Together). O Dreamland is a great little document of the great unwashed having a day out at a fun fair. Together doesn't work or hold up very well really, it's a brave attempt and obviously influenced by Italian neorealism. I'm not saying this to wag a finger in your face, but only because I know you have a need to know everything.

[clydefro]

I do indeed have a need to know everything and if the opportunity arises I'll be sure to check out the other ones. I tend to associate Lindsay Anderson's "Thursday's Children" with that whole thing too but I guess the connection is mostly unofficial. About the "Lambeth Boys" film - I was really struck by some of the comments the kids would make, like the one guy discussing his suits and how much he paid for them or the other one talking about making the girl pay for dances. I really get a kick out of that look into both another time and, for me, another culture. I may have enjoyed it more than Saturday Night, which I still have to listen to the commentary of before finishing my review. I don't think I'll be linking to it here but it should be up at DVD Times early next week.

[clydefro]

Film Forum's "Brit Noir" festival goes with some of this discussion, though the vast majority of titles being shown are beyond obscure in the U.S. Most aren't on DVD here and are completely unknown to me. Links to FF's page and a post I did that has the titles and directors listed with IMDb links. I haven't decided yet what to see, though a double feature of The Criminal and Yield to the Night looks likely.